Vandalog – A Street Art Blog » Freight train and a lithograph from Know Hope

http://Website James

So not in the tradition of hobo boxcar graffiti that stretches back nearly 100 years then?

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

You’re completely right James, but I’m specifically thinking here about street artists who a. document their work on trains, b. may be influenced by NY subway graffiti as well as the hobo boxcar graffiti and c. also paint walls (and may have started their work on walls and are/were better known for working on walls). But of course, as you say James, anybody that I’ve mentioned (probably Kilgallen, Know Hope and Deuce Seven primarily) are definitely doing these drawings after being influenced by hobo graffiti.

Perhaps I am contributing to the continued problem of writing off hobo graffiti and not acknowledging it as an important art tradition, but that certainly was not my intention

http://Website James

Ok. Fair enough, though I can’t quite tell if you’re being sarcastic or not, but either way, I highly recommend this film if you haven’t already seen it http://www.billdaniel.net/who_is_bozo_texino/

It’s not so much that I’m worried about traditional boxcar graffiti not being recognised as an important art form, because it already is. I was thinking more of the fact that a lot of commentary on ‘street art’ often seems to exist in a kind of vacuum, somehow insulated from all other genres of art as if it recently arrived from another planet. This is one of the aspects that can make it appear a bit dumb to those who are looking at it from the outside.

http://Website James II

RJ you need to stop pretending to know more than you really do. Some of your postings are clueless. Did you ever write on a wall yourself? Take a page from Martha Cooper and spend more than a day in the life. Go cut your teeth, get a job and stop living off your parents.

http://Website James

Bit harsh there James II. I can fully understand how you might hunger for some street art critique that doesn’t read like an advert, or consist mostly of empty stoner rhetoric such as ‘dope’ ‘rad’ or ‘awesome’, but there’s no real need to bring someone’s family or personal financial situation into it.

http://Website Mark G

I’m afraid to say it but i couldn’t agree with James II more. I’m not one for pointlessly bashing someone but it amazes me to see so many artists i respect tread so carefully around you at events, when really if they were honest they’re all thinking exactly this!

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

James, I wasn’t being sarcastic. I’ve heard of that documentary, but I haven’t seen it yet. I’d like to though. Maybe I’ll get the DVD.

I was just thinking the other day about how street art exists in a vacuum. Certainly, I’m part of maintaining that vacuum, and that’s not something I’m proud of. But I was looking at some new work from an artist who shall remain nameless because I don’t really want to turn this into a debate on the merits of his work, but basically the artist’s new paintings were being snatched up by street art fans, even though, if you looked at them within the wider art world, they were super-derivative and unoriginal. The only reasons I can think of for why his work was being bought is that a. he’s built of a reputation in the street art world so people want to be able to say “I own something by X” or b. his fans only look at street art and low-brow art, so they are unaware how derivative his new work is.

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

And James, you’re right. My vocabulary is limited. If I’m an art critic, I’m an art critic without any art education. Then again, I don’t think Jerry Saltz had an art history education, so my excuse is probably not a great one.

http://Website James

Didn’t mean just you when I was referring to the general vocabulary used…It’s something I see all the time across a range of street art blogs and flickr. But you’ve hit the nail on the head about the quality of a lot of street art. Let’s face it, most of it is really shit. It only becomes popular and commercial because many of those buying into the hype have little or no experience of the wider art world, so have a very under-developed aesthetic appreciation, (to put it mildly). Thus the poor quality work becomes artificially elevated because it doesn’t require much mental effort to access, while anything a bit more complex doesn’t register on the radar, because it’s too alien. And so the cycle continues. It’s like if you give a little kid the choice between watching cartoons or an intricately crafted documentary film.
So we end up with superheroes, drips and one dimensional ironic ikea style photoshop stencils on canvas. It’s really not a healthy situation.

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

Some street art is great, a lot of it is shit. Like most genres of art. But I still think that, on the whole, street art has more potential than most art genres to create interesting art.

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

Maybe so Mark, but some people criticize me for writing posts that sound like press releases (unlike Juxtapoz, which just posts press releases and makes it look like they’re posting their own words), so I can’t be that harsh on artists.

And I’m sorry if some artists feel that they have to tiptoe around me. Steve Powers has had the balls the criticize me on Twitter a couple of times, and I still write good things about some of his art. C215 and I went out for dinner a few months ago and it was a charming guy, but that didn’t stop me from criticizing his recent solo show in London.

As for living off my parents, yeah. I took a year off from school. I’m lucky that I was able to do that. Now I’m going to college. And yeah, my parents are supporting me, but again, I’m fortunate and I appreciate that. That’s not a crime, it’s not something I’ve ever tried to hide, it’s not something I have control over and I don’t see why it’s relevant. Do you know how I first got involved in street art? As I’ve said before, my dad randomly bought something by Faile and we both fell in love with street art.

http://Website James II

If it’s one thing you do have RJ it’s thick skin. With that said, since this internet shit the blogs, etc are comparable to most of the street work, they sucks. This blog is run by gallery owners and artists who promote what they do way too much. ROA is a good artist but please no more posts. It’s got to be more well rounded. Was comparable to Wooster and the Banksy film debacle.

I for one only check in at times to laugh at the hypocrisy of it all. UNURTH and STREETSY seem to have it right. Blogs hold way too much power. They force artists to make nice and join shows curated by bloggers for fear of being shunned. It’s not just this one either. Way to many newbee photogs and bloggers with a small following blow up too fast and make books and shows. This scene is getting way too predictable.

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

How posting is a bit too much about Roa is comparable to Wooster and Exit Through The Gift Shop?

Last November, I sold one of his paintings a show I put together. That’s the only time I’ve ever made money with anything related to Roa. I interviewed Roa for Very Nearly Almost, but I don’t get paid when I write for VNA (okay I get a few magazines, but no money). And of course I’m going to post that a new issue of VNA is coming out if I’ve written something for it. Sebastian at Unurth posted about The Art Street Journal even though it’s not what he would normally post on Unurth. Why? Because he writes for TASJ.

Or do you just mean it feels like Roa-overload sometimes? Fair enough. It seems like most street blogs have an artist or two that they post a bit too much about.

I probably could cover a wider range of artists. That’s one of the reasons that I’ve recently added more writers to the blog. Not that I’ll ever top Unurth’s range of artists though. Sebastian is probably the best at what he does.

About 80% of the posts on Vandalog have been written by me. About 15% have been written by artists or gallery owners. Looking at Gaia and Elisa’s last 20 posts, about 50% were self promotional. That number includes things like the new issue of TASJ which features articles written by Vandalog staff and Gaia’s trip to Korea which was posted about on a number of other blogs. So I’m pretty sure that Vandalog isn’t run by galleries and artists.

Or do you mean that behind the scenes galleries and artists are telling me what to post about? That’s pretty tough for you to prove or for me to disprove.

http://Website James

Agree with James II about the blogs. They are one of the things that are making this scene so stagnant. They often focus only on a very narrow section of street art that is in their own interests to do so. Either for commercial reasons, friendships with certain artists and the benefits that brings or else because of their heavily conservative political stance and associated corporate links (as in the case of Wooster).

The result is that they wield a power that is out of all proportion to their real usefulness to the artform, and artists are rendered subservient, whilst often secretly holding the blogs in contempt. Any street art that isn’t deemed internet friendly enough gets ignored and in effect censored, while the most bland kind of superficiality from the same old mainstream ‘approved’ roster of artists is then promoted as cutting edge.

Now I fully expect someone to respond that Unurth is so good at showcasing new talent, when the truth is that although they do show a wider range of artists, they’ve become just as dull as Wooster, by only featuring that which falls into the category of being generically ‘pretty’, non-threatening or large scale and permissioned.

At least you allow comments on here, which is more than can be said for the other sites, and is why it might feel like all the anger is being directed at you. But the reality is that a lot of people are really fed up with the stranglehold that the street art blogs in general seem to have. It feels like we are having to try to get information through a heavily controlled and consistently biased series of filters that do not represent the wishes of the users, but instead only serve the personal agendas and prejudices of the blog editors.

http://Website Freddy G.

Wow. I could not have said it better then James just did. Really captures exactly what I and apparently others are feeling.

http://Website James II

Totally agree James. Man that sums it up. Any questions?

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

Here’s something kind of funny: Back in May, James II was commenting under another name (or someone else at his IP address was commenting here) and encouraging me to post about Roa.

I would encourage James and James II and anybody else who feels this way to start their own blogs or to email me with suggestions of what is worth posting on Vandalog. Then, I and everyone else can get exposed to the art that they like. That would probably be a good thing.

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

Oh and James II and Freddy G. have the same IP address.

http://Website Freddy G.

FYI. There is more than one person here that shares the same sentiments. Is that not allowed? More rules.

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

It’s allowed, but it’s also interesting.

I would not be surprised if Freddy G., James II, Pickels tickles, I should know…., The truth as you see it? and Rick are all the same person (or at least not 6 different people), since all those names have commented on Vandalog from the same IP address. Of course, those names could be 6 different people who live or work at the same place.

At the very least, I should know…., Rick and The truth as you see it? all had the same IP address and claimed to have the same email address, which makes me think that all 6 names are the same person. Nothing I can prove though.

http://Website Freddy G.

LOL!! Pickels Tickles? LOL!! What? Who? the hell are you talking about man?

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

That’s one of the names that somebody at your IP address used to diss me a few weeks ago.

http://Website Mark

Mark G. and Freddy G. bothered to post here more than one time only to agree with James but none of them brought any new ideas for the discussion. Sorry, but it reflects limited opinion and so to speak, limited minds. If you guys intend to joy James group to smash RJ on his own blog comments, i suggest you to slow down your fingers a bit as well speed up your minds, because your posts are really annoying. If in fact you haven’t opinionated yet, do like me. Be quiet and just read. I’m learning a lot with this discussion.

http://Website Mark

Well, so it’s more like a self talk than a discussion, lol.

RJ keep up the good work, nice blog.

http://Website Mark G

Lovely to see you fighting the corner for Bloggers so well in the never ending Bloggers Vs Journalists debate.

Bloggers are doing their best to get the professional recognition that to be fair many of them deserve, but your childish petulance and complete unprofessionalism would have them embarassed to call you their counterpart.

And as for Journalists, well best we skip over what they’d have to say about the way you conduct yourself on here, around artists, at events or on the many other forums you voice yourself through!

http://www.unurth.com sebastian

this comment sums up the perverse argument here:

James: “But the reality is that a lot of people are really fed up with the stranglehold that the street art blogs in general seem to have.”

it seems pretty clear that if you don’t like how a blog covers something, you don’t have to go there.

it’s also pretty well known that to start your own blog costs nothing, is easy as hell, and if people like what you do, they’ll come take a look. JamesAndClones.com is probably available.

http://Website Dylan

Interesting discussion, good read. I’ve met RJ at a few events and gotta say there’s nothing wrong with taking advantage of a fortunate situation (his family’s wealth).

It’s clear he’s interested in street art and knows a good deal about it.

Does he have an agenda? Maybe, but that’s for the reader to figure out (why does he always push black rat artists, etc).

http://Website James

Seems like I’ve hit a nerve here. Shame that the discussion has caused certain people to become defensive and turn personal, rather than focusing on the issue raised. To whoever said I’m trying to slam RJ on his own blog…that’s not the case at all. I actually defended him from a personal attack earlier in these comments. I’ve previously said that it’s more of a general thing, and not specific to this blog. It’s also too easy to just say “well, go start your own blog then if you don’t like it” that’s a petulant response. If you’re putting anything out into the public domain then you need to be prepared to accept a critique of it. Not just cover your ears and scream “go away!”. JamesandcClones.com?? Wow, that’s childish…I’m quite disappointed in you Sebastian.

There are many reasons why people can’t start their own blogs, mine is that I work long hours and spend much of my time outside of that on other commitments. It’s true that nobody is forcing me to look at this blog, or any other for that matter, and believe me I really wouldn’t bother if there were any alternatives available. Like I said before, all of the blogs seem to carry more or less the same narrow range of content, and have modelled themselves on Wooster. The question is actually quite redundant really, because if people had the resources, time, inclination and ability to start their own blogs then no doubt they would. That’s not the issue here. We’re talking about why the ones that already exist don’t seem to adequately represent the full spectrum street art and are weighted so heavily in favour of a particular version of it.

In the case of Wooster for example, they often seem to pride themselves on “curating” things, like books, exhibitions, film sequences etc. As well of course on their blog, which is heavily “curated” to suit their own personal preference in street art. The result of this is that the face of street art that gets presented to the public by these self-appointed cultural gatekeepers is in reality a highly selective sample of the taste of a middle-aged, bourgeois, politically conservative marketing executive. Do I really want that kind of person telling me what street art is? Well, the fact is that if I don’t happen to live in a big city so that I can see street art for myself then I haven’t got much choice in the matter, except for going to the other blogs of course, which all are doing more or less the same thing anyway.

The information we are presented with daily in the mainstream news media and advertising is tightly regulated and controlled by the opinions and self interest of the white upper middle-class, should street art be the same? Like I said before, I really wouldn’t care about it, if only their domination of the arena wasn’t so total. It’s just that when the public are consistently given only one edited and scripted side of the story then it has unfortunate consequences, such as street art being pushed in an ever more commercial direction as a result of vested interests, or a stifling lack of diversity due to artists feeling they have to conform to a certain style in order to get exposure.

http://Website Some random

To anyone that’s hating, go easy on RJ, he’s always struck me as someone with integrity.

The gatekeeper argument might have some validity if the barriers to entry in this game were higher, but the truth is there are none.
This isn’t some bygone age with a wealthy patrons, collectors and writers being the only who had the ability to set the agenda – your voice can easily be as loud as any perceived elite.

Don’t like this blog? Like someone else said, start your own. Seriously, go do it right now. I don’t buy the ‘lack of time’ argument, if you’ve got enough time to comment here, read this blog or post anything on a Facebook wall, you’ve got enough time to blog. Go to Tumblr.com, and you can be up and running in less than 3 minutes.

If I’m being honest, I find Schiller incredibly irritating, and when I started to follow him on Twitter, his tweets about fine dining/wine/what have you grated enormously, and frankly had nothing to do with street art. But guess what? I stopped following him.

If you don’t like this blog for whatever reason, don’t read it. It really is as simple as that isn’t it? There are THOUSANDS of street art blogs worldwide. Happy reading.

And to the dude that got personal, no need for that now was there? Thanks anyway for reaffirming to me at least, the need for a cloak..

http://Website Dylan

james, you’re really quite articulate in your arguments, they’re interesting to read.

however, while i agree with your points, i must say that you leave it seeming hopeless.

If not for blogs, what’s your solution? At some point, in a public forum in which one has created, personal preferences are going to take over and you’ll be inclined to write about that. Race/creed/religion have nothing to do with that.

It’s easy to blame ‘the man’, it’s harder to come up with a solution.

http://www.unurth.com sebastian

it’s amazing that you’re using the web to make this argument, because it’s as if you have no understanding of what’s out there on the web. There must be thousands of street art blogs for you to choose from. And if you want the raw stuff, go to the artists’ blogs or flickr. It’s all free, unedited and a search away.

So when you say ‘self-appointed cultural gatekeepers’ you just don’t make any sense. In what way is any blog a gatekeeper? Why do you feel compelled to go through their gate?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/_yote/ yote

The “we” in this quote tells me James is a bitter street artist…

“It feels like we are having to try to get information through a heavily controlled and consistently biased series of filters that do not represent the wishes of the users, but instead only serve the personal agendas and prejudices of the blog editors.”

I’m more curious in why James… Why you feel you have to get information through these filters and gates in the first place?

Personally I feel it is much more important to have a presence on the streets of my community than to have a presence online.

What do you envision will happen when you are “getting up” on the blogs?

http://Website Some random

Well my (long, thought out, insult free) comment wasn’t published and in the meantime a couple of others have appeared?

http://Website James

@Sebastian, first off…there are not thousands of street art blogs. There are in fact only a handful that are updated regularly, and that don’t just post press releases.

Secondly, sure…I can go on flickr and see street art (as I already do), but suggesting I do that is like asking somebody who subscribes to a art magazine (for example) why they don’t just look at pictures of art on google image search instead. It’s probably because they want more in-depth information, articles and discourse.

Finally, a gatekeeper is somebody who metaphorically controls access to something. In this case it’s publicity for streetart. Looking at a blog doesn’t mean I “go through their gate”. The term as used in this sense refers to the selective filtering and control of information in order to present an incomplete or one sided viewpoint.

@Yote, I’m afraid you’ve misunderstood me completely there, and are looking at what I said from the entirely wrong end of the equation. When I said “we” in that sentence I was talking specifically about the people who read these blogs. “Get information” meant trying to find out what is happening in the streetart world. I wasn’t referring to artists trying to promote things, but was talking about those of us who come here looking for information and don’t feel satisfied with what is on offer.

Like has been said before though, I should probably stop looking if I don’t like it. I just wanted to air my opinion before I do, that’s all.

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

Sorry to Some random and Dylan for the delay in your comments going online. New commenters go through a moderation system so I have to approve comments, and I was sleeping.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/_yote/ yote

@James…then I agree with Sebastian… search out other ways to get your information…

Although it is always easier to just blame others.

http://Website James

@Dylan, you’re absolutely right, I don’t have any easy answers. I’d thought that raising my concerns about the issue might have an effect, but on reflection I doubt that it will have any serious long term impact. I suppose the only answer would be if different blogs emerge in time and hopefully the focus will shift.

@Some Random, yes, obviously It doesn’t take long to start up a blog. It’s being able to generate consistent interesting content that’s the difficult and time consuming part . Like I said before, I don’t have the ability to do that at the moment, for various reasons. Surely that shouldn’t preclude me from having an opinion about exists at the moment? Besides, your argument is pretty nonsensical really, because if I had the necessary contacts and information to write my own street art blog (as you seem to assume I do) then I wouldn’t need to come onto blogs like this in the hope of finding out what’s going on in the streetart world in the first place would I.

http://Website James

@Yote, you seem like the one who’s the bitter street artist here. No apology for misjudging me I see, but just another barbed comment. Maybe you feel like you need to ingratiate yourself to the bloggers in order to ensure your future publicity. Thankfully I don’t have to play that game.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/_yote/ yote

I misjudged… I presumed you had personal reasons for being upset with the street art blogger world… but that was projection. Your critiques are on point but it appears you are just bored and want someone else to do something about it.

http://Website Some random

@James clearly you’re not precluded from having an opinion, that isn’t at all what I’m implying. In fact it’s the opposite, you articulate yourself well enough here, why use those thoughts and opinions on your own webspace?

It’s far from ‘nonsensical’ to recommend you create your own content (in whatever form) because being a passive consumer with a voice only in the comment section of a site you apparently hold in contempt isn’t a patch on being an active producer almost anywhere else, believe me. I was motivated by a general loathing of the existing narrative in my niche, and it served me well.

And by the way, contacts aren’t necessary to get started in this sphere, just ask any prominent street art blogger, you can guarantee 99% they were absolute nobodys to start with. No-one’s born with an iPhone full of contacts, that sort of stuff is earnt.

Anyway, I saw RJ under a little bit of a seige and thought it right to step in. He’s effectively still just a kid (sorry RJ) but has carved out a pretty strong site in my eyes, what sort of parameters exactly do you suggest you want to set for him? There is no such thing as absolute objectivity when it comes to art.

PS If you’d started this whole thing stating the positives of what you liked about this/any other art site before making what might have even been valid criticisms, I think your voice would have been more listened to. It’s too easy to hate

http://Website James

Ok, no prob then. I can see how it might seem like that, but I feel like even raising the subject and entering into this debate is an attempt to change things, albeit in a small way. I could probably start my own blog, maybe I even will, who knows. Or perhaps this discussion might even inspire someone else to do so. Although l’m not sure how much of an impact that will have on the more immediate situation that exists with regard to the issues I’ve outlined above. I guess it’s due all to a set of circumstances that have taken place in the evolution of both the internet and streetart, which have somehow led to various sites becoming entrenched and accepted as dominant authoritative sources and models to follow. It will probably take some time for new, more democratic and ‘open source’ portals of communication to emerge and gain a foothold that will hopefully adjust the whole thing back into some kind of equilibrium.

http://www.vandalog.com RJ

So I thought I’d stop commenting on this post myself, but I just want to make a quick note that while I disagree with a lot of what James has said, he has also made some good points. As much as I am thankful that people are sticking up for me, let’s not hate too much on James.

http://Website James

Ok, thanks for that RJ. I’ve said more or less all I want to say about the matter now really. One last thing that did come to mind though, regarding people saying I should start my own blog if I have issues with those that already exist. I’d just like to say that if somebody identifies something they dislike, or what is in their opinion a problem, it doesn’t necessarily follow that they must therefore be responsible for also providing the solution. For example, if a street art blogger criticises an art show, (which I admit is a rare occurrence) I don’t see any of you then jumping in to say to them “well, if you don’t like the art on show, why don’t you go and paint something better?”
To take that type of approach is actually a distraction from, and avoidance of the issue, by putting all the blame upon the person who dared to speak out against the thing they disagree with, rather than debating the actual subject raised. Never mind though, I’m sure people will ignore everything I’ve just said, as well as previously and continue to tell me to go and start my own blog.

Societysfailure

http://www.fadedglorymagazine.bigcartel.com ……….. HOBO MONIKER CHALK BOXCAR ART MAGAZINE since 2001 !!!

Freight train and a lithograph from Know Hope

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